2007 Honda Element - VSA issue

[NPASC_mike]

2007 Honda Element EX 2.4 5 speed AWD

History was customer had vehicle at another shop for tires, after mounting the tires, the VSA, Brake and ABS lights came on and would not go off. My suspect was someone had beat the wheels off damaging a Wheel Speed Sensor. No visual damage was found. TPMS is functioning as designed. My lovely Genysis will not read Wheel speed. When I try to communicate with the VSA, at first I get an error saying "the Vehicle could not be identified and has returned diagnostic P/N 2003256546" ( that is not the actual number but its long) So I hit the exit button and then try to go right back into the VSA and it then says " Vehicle Identified" and connects to the VSA, If I try to go any further I just get a message saying the VSA has returned an error code 84-1. I cannot find "84-1" in any manual here or in my OD5. OTC has no clue either, they have even updated my software trying to resolve connection issues with this car( and some Fords)
No OBDII trouble codes are stored.

Any Honda guys out here??? The car is not here at the moment,

I'm just lost on where to start on this one.

I am assuming that when the tires were mounted they were put back into their original positions.. but if they were not, wouldn't that have set the TPMS light on?
try to check back often, bear in mind i'm 4 hours behind you east coast guys.

[steven kiser]

bulletin # 06-072 talks about a new designed monitoring system and special tools to program. i'm thinking that the sensors were damaged when tires were replaced. be sure you're able to replace and program correctly before you jump into it. i had to purchase a new tire monitor programming tool because my old one wouldn't work on some 05 and newer. i'll add here again, be real careful how this is handled and if in fact one sensor is found damaged because of improper installation there may be one or more that are just hanging in there and will crap out later and since (i know it's a feeling i always have) you were the last one you worked on it you'll own it. another tip here. a rule of the shop especially on hondas, since i'm in a snow area with salt being used, any vehicle that we do tire work on we trash the oem valve caps that are metal and use plastic ones.

[ricmorin]

Code 84 is for the VSA sensor calibration. Did the other shop do an alignment maybe? You'll need a tool that can reliably communicate and confirm the code, then do the sensor calibration.

[NPASC_mike]

Thanks Ric... I wanted to buy new toys this month anyway.. IF a tire pressure sensor was damaged, wouldn't the low tire light be on?

Steve, no alignment machine anywhere on the island. I do them here like we did on the race cars back east. well, maybe a little more high tech I have built a tool that I can measure everything with and do the math for my degrees and angles. ( mind you speed limit is 35 mph here... if i get everything within a degree or so it works great)

Guess I will be looking into a new TPMS tool... any suggestions? preferably something that will work on more than hondas.. or is that asking too much? lol

My Genysis will perform the calibration, and I ran through it just to be sure it would do it, and the scanner tells me it was completed successfully, but reading any datastream is beyond the functionality of my Genysis.

[steven kiser]

these sensors come alive at speeds over 25mph. i just purchased a tool from snap on. it will do 99% of the vehicles on the road. was this vehicle brought on the island and this is the first set of tires put on it? the sensors may need to be driven at a constant rate of speed for a predetermined distance that's not attainable on the island. on this point how do you do relearns on older vehicles?

[ricmorin]

I hear the Bartec 400 is great. No direct experience, though.

[NPASC_mike]

these sensors come alive at speeds over 25mph. i just purchased a tool from snap on. it will do 99% of the vehicles on the road. was this vehicle brought on the island and this is the first set of tires put on it? the sensors may need to be driven at a constant rate of speed for a predetermined distance that's not attainable on the island. on this point how do you do relearns on older vehicles?

The majority of the ones we have had so far, are Fords.. install, do the key thing and hold the magnet to them till the horn chirps., plus my Genysis has a tpms tool in it, its just doesn't have very good coverage.
What you state about the driving distance is what I suspect also, but I can't find any documentation supporting it. Lets say I had this tool from Snap On, does the vehicle still need to be driven to complete the relearn?

[steven kiser]

it must reach over 25mph for a short time before it activates, sends, and the monitor reads.

[NPASC_mike]

Tnx for the input, Been needing a good tpms tool so I am shopping those this weekend,

[ricmorin]

My gut is telling me this is not a TPMS issue. Just reviewed the wiring diagrams and the two systems don't appear to have much in common. I would expect the TPMS light to be on if it were TPMS related. Did the lights come on immediately after the work or did some time pass? I assume you've seen the TPMS light 'prove out'.

[NPASC_mike]

My gut is telling me this is not a TPMS issue. Just reviewed the wiring diagrams and the two systems don't appear to have much in common. I would expect the TPMS light to be on if it were TPMS related. Did the lights come on immediately after the work or did some time pass? I assume you've seen the TPMS light 'prove out'.

I don't think the TPMS is the issue either, but I wanted to confirm that. The bulb test goes as it should and the low tire light never comes on after that, just the VSA, ABS and Brake lamps. Customers states they were not on when he dropped it off for tires, and has been on since he picked it up and the other shop said they had no clue..( par for the course, we got your money for the tires.. sucks to be you about the light)

Not having worked on many Hondas , I wasn't sure if putting the Wheels back in their original positions would have anything to do with the VSA. I have seen before where a "mechanic" has beat on a wheel or hub and damaged wheel speed sensors, which is what I suspect here, but without being able to read WSS in my datastream. I might as well be tinkling into the wind.

Starting to regret not buying the Modis, I think it has better Honda coverage.

On the older GM's to test wheel speed sensor, we would hook up a multimeter and spin the wheel as fast as we could by hand, if they were good, it would generate roughly 300 mV, wonder is this would be a usable test for this car also, gonna try it Monday. Bad thing is, Customer can only leave me the car for a few hours at a time as it is relied on heavily. Sometimes I dont even get a chance to get it in before they have to come pick it up. UGH. Monday I'm gonna take the keys out of it until I've had it inside..lol

Was kinda hoping someone had a similar problem after changing wheels/ tires.

[steven kiser]

i've seen harnesses damaged by rim hits. on some applications with aluminum wheels that are frozen because of oxidation. wouldn't expect that in alaska though. we will loosely leave a stud or nut on and hit the inside of the wheel with a plastic or wooden mallet. if they're not secured anything can happen including the wheel slamming into the strut tower or goose neck damaging the harness. run your fingers along the lead and see if you feel any deviation in it. since it's in your shop you must have a good reputation, that's great so don't let the actions of others effect it. look at all the sensors and leads. they all may be damaged now and fail later. i've seen this and now take pictures and document all. another thing here (ya i know, i'm rambling) is if the shop that installed the tires is a reputable shop that you've dealt with or are friendly with offer the customer the option of having you deal with them. keeps things at a professional level and keeps the customer and his anger out of the loop. in a small area like yours build a reputation by example. good luck.

[NPASC_mike]

Found a neat trick years ago for those stuck wheels, Take the biggest pry bar you can find, you know the big 6 footer standing in the corner that takes both hands to hold onto. Go under the vehicle and place the bar under the rotor or drum ( some cars you can get on a piece of the suspension which works best) from the backside of the wheel, and with a simple pull down ANY wheel will come loose, once in a blue moon I have to spin the wheel and pry in several spots, but 98% of the time the wheel pops off like it was just installed 10 minutes ago. Sometimes you will tweak a backing plate, which is an easy fix, and I have yet to damage a rotor, drum, wheel bearing, wheel, sensor or anything else using this method in the last 15 years. I caught my new guy beating on a stuck wheel his first week here and I almost had a cow. Works on Aluminum wheels as well as steel. and best of all, no hammering sensitive components. ( I'll try and post a pic of the method tomorrow)

I've looked over all the components and I did find what looked like someone had tried to remove the RF speed sensor,and shows signs of screwdriver/prybar marks so we are going to replace it. Fortunately, this customer trusts my educated guess at this point, and the sensors are fairly cheap ( 52.00) . Customer is chalking it up to another case of "It wasn't me", which is completely unacceptable to me, but as you well know, it's hard to tell a customer this is what the other place did and this is what its going to cost to fix it. He has already referred two new customers in and I don't have his car fixed yet.

The manager of the other shop, ( which is attached to a chain supermarket/hardware/clothing store) Is a pretty easy going guy and we do work together on a lot of things ( he is also one of the parts stores) They have a nice facility but are plagued as I am at the lack of qualified techs "in the Bush". I have hired one now from UTI and I am considering a second one now as business has doubled since then. I could write a book on some of the crazy things I have seen in the last year here.. ( real quick one.. pitman arm leak on a 88 pathfinder, so they cut the Alt and P/S belt and told the customer it wasnt needed anyway... until the truck overheated on his way home because that belt runs the fan also..... get my drift?)

Will post after WSS replacement. Just was poking around in here to make sure moving the tires around didn't upset the VSA calibration.

[steven kiser]

we also have a gorilla pry bar we use from time to time. the issue is that i don't know my own strength. i've bent honda rotors before. what i love is when someone comes in with a vibration because the wheel is loose and it has just been to "town fair tire", "sears", or a wholesale club. we pull it off and the crusty crapolla is still there. we take all the wheels off, use a wire wheel on a hand grinder, fill the shop with white dust and remove 10 pounds of oxidation. put light grease on the hub and torque the wheels. i find the wooden mallet works best for me. i had a real whizz bang working for me and he was trying to beat off a tire. i watched him hit the wheel with no avail. he wound up with the mallet, missed the wheel and hit the tire. talk about something out of the "road runner" cartoon. i watched, clear as day,as the mallet come straight back and hit him square in the forehead, he went down like a, well i'll leave that description to you, he mentioned comp, i mentioned you tube from the shop cameras. we all laughed when he walked away. his back was all covered with speedy dry...............................

[NPASC_mike]

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has given themselves a broken nose....


hehheh "Sears"... Ron White's " Tire College" bahahahahhaha